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Old Jun 03, 2006, 01:50 AM // 01:50   #61
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I honestly....don't have a problem with this nerf. I'd call it as a NEEDED balance to the game. I mean, say you have 10 SR, and then your ritualist is having one sirit die every ten seconds (possible when using Ritual Lord as the elite). That's 5 energy ever 10 seconds, and about an extra pip or two of regen. Now, lets say there's two spirits dying every 10 seconds. That's a little over three extra pips of regen from just spirit deaths.

I think that's plenty strong. And it still owns PvE, so I don't see why people are complainaing.
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Old Jun 03, 2006, 01:52 AM // 01:52   #62
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Thank God ANet "sort of" fixed the soul reaping from rit spirits.

Heaven forbid necros actually have to start to learn how to manage their energy just like every other profession.
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Old Jun 03, 2006, 01:56 AM // 01:56   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Omni Spirit
What Anet is really thing: "This is a PVP game and nerfs are needed to balance out GW, so screw all you pve people, go play WoW if you like RPing so much."

/sigh
This IS a pvp game, read the name on your box.

I hardly see how this effects pve players though, it's not like you ever have a situation where large amounts of spirits are constantly dieing. I think you're just looking for something to complain about.


Personally, as someone who runs blood spike quite often, I think the update is perfectly fine. It's in the favor of overall balance, and that's not a bad thing. Besides, 1/2 energy is still enough to benefit from spirit spam. And I always did think blood spike holding for hours on end was a bit ridiculous...
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Old Jun 03, 2006, 02:12 AM // 02:12   #64
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Originally Posted by B Ephekt
This IS a pvp game, read the name on your box.
How do you explain the character creation screen then? Or the detailed pictures and descriptions inside the box cover?
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Old Jun 03, 2006, 02:15 AM // 02:15   #65
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Guild... Wars...

I don't see any enemy guilds running around in pve.
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Old Jun 03, 2006, 02:22 AM // 02:22   #66
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I'm not a member of a guild when I start a PvE character either, no coupons or flyers when I started my character. I'm still not a member of a guild, but I still play... weird. Because, I have to be a member of a guild and be at war with other guilds.

Anyway, I don't mind the nerfs that were made to necros, I just don't play a MM anymore. I just use more of a SS type build in PvE.
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Old Jun 03, 2006, 02:23 AM // 02:23   #67
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as for guilds fighting in pve, we have the Am Fah & Jade Brotherhood, and some other canthan guilds that are not to found of each other. Factions have given a little more to civil war sense, But I agree its still rather slim.
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Old Jun 03, 2006, 03:30 AM // 03:30   #68
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tbh, necro's (specifically necro spike(s)) werent nerfed enough, the new opressive gaze spike is worse than blood spike ever was, I can see that being the new blood spike, so i can also see me stopping Heros Ascent again, till somethings done about it.
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Old Jun 03, 2006, 05:02 AM // 05:02   #69
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Necros not wanted in PvP?

>_< what game have you been playing.

Necros have been in major builds since the beginning.
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Old Jun 03, 2006, 08:06 AM // 08:06   #70
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Originally Posted by B Ephekt
Guild... Wars...

I don't see any enemy guilds running around in pve.
That Jade gang in Kaineng area runs around with a cape.
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Old Jun 03, 2006, 09:30 AM // 09:30   #71
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Playing a mesmer since this game came out and beeing used to manage my energy income for myself since then, I just can't understand all this complaining. ?? start thinking!

start flaming if that's your last resort
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Old Jun 03, 2006, 10:01 AM // 10:01   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by B Ephekt
Guild... Wars...

I don't see any enemy guilds running around in pve.

I do..... guild wars isn't just a pvp game, i'd say it was more PVE Imo
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Old Jun 03, 2006, 10:10 AM // 10:10   #73
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To tell you honsetly:

I do not think I have ever failed a PvE mission whenever there was a minion master necro on my team

That really says something in regeards as to whether they are over-powered or not
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Old Jun 03, 2006, 10:15 AM // 10:15   #74
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Necro primary are not useful? I think last time I checked, the goal of using a primary class in pvp is to raise his abilities well over 12. Then after that, take advantage of the primary attribute if it's possible. Sure enough, you will find builds that do the opposite, but that's not the general rule.

Is necro spike dead? no. Will that little nerf requires people playing necro spike display a little more skill? not sure. Is it the end of the primary necro in pvp? lol certainly not :P
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Old Jun 03, 2006, 10:21 AM // 10:21   #75
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@Yuna

You can split on Burning Isle. You just have to run past the other team to do so. It in no way completely prevents splitting like Imperial Isle did.

As for my average of +15 pips of energy regen from the necromancers, this is a figure from the iB vs EW games, it's about the equivilent of the additional regen EW was getting from their spirits.
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Old Jun 03, 2006, 06:32 PM // 18:32   #76
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I don't see any enemy guilds running around in pve.
Jade Brotherhood and the Am Fah. And the Crimson Skull. And, technically, the Stone Summit. And, again technically, the White Mantle and the Shining Blade. (Sure, they don't consider themselves guilds, but they fly their colors and march around their 'not-a-guild' halls all the same). And the Obsidian Flame, on the side of the angels. I'm sure there are more.
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Old Jun 03, 2006, 07:53 PM // 19:53   #77
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Originally Posted by Zorian Direspell
Jade Brotherhood and the Am Fah. And the Crimson Skull. And, technically, the Stone Summit. And, again technically, the White Mantle and the Shining Blade. (Sure, they don't consider themselves guilds, but they fly their colors and march around their 'not-a-guild' halls all the same). And the Obsidian Flame, on the side of the angels. I'm sure there are more.
But those don't count because they're not in pvp, lolz

[/sarcasm]
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Old Jun 03, 2006, 08:52 PM // 20:52   #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by miasma
Case in point.... A very common necromancer build to run in gvg is a hex spammer/warrior hate necro. Smart guilds, like mine, added a rit for protection and SR energy, dropped OoB, and used Wail of Doom, thus making the necro effective at doing his job even against heavy hex protected builds.
So what you're saying is that smart guilds took out one of their offensive characters for a third defensive character in a spike build. Then they stuck a 15 energy, 15 second recharge elite on a character that just lost his energy management so that instead of offensively spamming degen, he can try and play defense and try and hit their warriors with Wail.

It sounds to me like 'smart guilds' have no idea how to play pressure.


Quote:
Originally Posted by miasma
They were way to quick to nerf SR, instead of waiting to see what counters, we as a community came up with, all because of one build that won the Championship.
You balance around the abusive, maximized usage of skills and mechanics, not the casual usage of them. Your entire argument is that one necromancer and one spirit spammer was fine, and no one is trying to argue against that. But that isn't relevant, because there's nothing locking you into one necro plus one spirit spammer. You could happily run five necros and three spirit spammers, and get ridiculous multiplicitive effects from each one added.


Quote:
Originally Posted by miasma
Adjust the specific build if no counters can be found, not the Primary attribute of a class!!!
The 'specific build' combo that was breaking the metagame was spirits + Soul Reaping + spells. The identities of the specific spirits and spells really isn't too important, just that there are a lot of them and that they are good. When Soul Reaping triggering on spirit deaths creating ridiculous amounts of energy is *unquestionably* the broken mechanic, why would you even think of addressing anything but it?


Quote:
Originally Posted by twicky_kid
It doesn't change the fact that they are interrupt bait. Most of their spells are over cost and too long recharge. What's the point of infinite energy if you can't get a single spell off?
They have energy too. Who cares if they interrupt your spells as long as it's a favorable energy trade and it's their backs against the wall to stop you, not the other way around?


Quote:
Originally Posted by twicky_kid
People in HA already learned that 2 mesmers with cry of frustration will decimate a necro spike team. 1 PD mesmer could lock down the teams entire spike FOREVER!!!
I assure you that two mesmers with Cry of Frustration are largely irrelevant to necro spike. I am more than willing to let you cast 21-energy Cry of Frustrations with your four pip guy against my 13 energy FoCs or SS's on 20 pip guys. I'd like to see your guys put up any sort of offense with that sort of energy burden, and I'd like to place a bet on who is going to run out of energy first. Psychic Distraction guy matters even less, I am perfectly happy to trade 13 for 13 with him all day.


Quote:
Originally Posted by yuna of spira
However, in terms of ANET moving too fast on the nerfing of this, it seems you dont want to allow the metagame to adjust to this new build as it has with other builds.
Remind me how long necro spike has been boring people to death on HA.


Quote:
Originally Posted by yuna of spira
Yes, Imperial Isle limits the ability to split, but thats a problem with ranger spikes and fast cast ele spikes.
You can fight ranger spike and fast cast ele spikes, because they play the attrition battle. If they want to spike fast, they burn energy quickly. If they don't blow you out pretty quickly they're going to have to slow down, and then the pressure starts to catch up, and what was a favorable situation for them starts to become unfavorable. You can weather the spikes and eventually break them.

Try doing that against a team that does not attrition. Against a team with eight defensive characters with effectively limitless energy - under Quickening Zephyr, at that. Try and beat that sort of defense with mes effects, it just isn't reasonable when they have that many guys ready to react defensively.

The way you had to try and beat that build was through spiking. Tell me what kind of spike build you want to be running under Quickening Zephyr when the other team is dropping 15 pips in spirits every minute.


Quote:
Originally Posted by yuna of spira
Anet created the fire map in prophecies to allow a map where you cannot split.
You could do things other than fight straight 8v8 on the fire map, albeit with difficulty, because you could at least access the base. On Imperial Isle, you could not even pretend to threaten the base because the gate was locked and there was no way to get a thief past a spike team. Even worse no one on the defending team ever had any reason to open that gate for you because the flag was outside.

This problem has also been addressed by the balance update, as you no longer require a guild thief to enter the opponent's base on that map.


Quote:
Originally Posted by yuna of spira
Also, you never fully addressed my issue with the reason someone should be a necro primary.
Higher attribute levels and the use of any secondary you want. On rare occasions you don't really want a secondary or high attribute levels, and are better off just going Mesmer/Necromancer for the Fast Casting. Skill bars that really want to do that are fairly rare though.


Quote:
Originally Posted by yuna of spira
The reasons you go with a certain primary is either the armor (which we can all agree necros suck at)
I don't understand how you reached that conclusion. Necromancers have the best armor of any caster in the game, and have the same health and energy options available as anyone else.


Quote:
Originally Posted by yuna of spira
the runes to boost attributes, and the primary attribute. Personally, i feel that the attributes for curses and death arent any better as they get larger than 12, only blood seems to have benefits, and I am not ready to accept that fact that only blood is valuable in a GvG.
If all you want out of death is Well of the Profane and Rotting Flesh, yes, you're better off fast casting those. If you want Tainted or Putrid or (particularly) minions, maximum death is very desirable. Curses has break points all over the place, for some skills you're happy to stop at 12 (Faintheartedness) or even not speccing at all (Shadow of Fear, Price of Failure). Others you want as high as they will go (Feast of Corruption, Desecrate Enchantments, Spiteful Spirit). Blood breaks at 12 if you're just trying to hex people with Life Siphon, you mostly want to go higher for Order of Pain or the DDs.

It's pretty rare for a necromancer to only be speccing one line, though. Usually you're going Blood/Curses or similar, with some usage from your secondary. The more attributes you're speccing, the more valuable it is to use it as your primary for the rune and hat bonus. With break points at 12 for important hexes, it is obvious that you need to be using a necromancer primary.


Quote:
Originally Posted by yuna of spira
Why would you even take soul reaping in the first place into a GvG before factions?
Because it situationally turned your energy from ok into excellent. It's a momentum attribute, and once the game hit a critical timeframe, for better or worse, you were in a good energy position to keep going. It is not uncommon for other characters to run out of steam when a team starts to break and that will let them stabilize, necromancers were less succeptable to this. In some cases you would invest heavily into this strategy and play heavy pressure with Soul Reaping to keep up momentum, but that wasn't super common. Usually you just had a few points in Soul Reaping that gave you a nice bonus to your energy on occasion but nothing huge. Certainly not crucial to the class, but better than Strength or Energy Storage if you aren't using linked skills.


Quote:
Originally Posted by yuna of spira
you are no longer a balanced build and are much more open to counters that would have been present in the metagame had ANET not halved the effectiveness of this.
I don't understand why 'being balanced' makes you less succeptable to counters, particularly for random play on the ladder or in HA. Every defense has tools to try and address the different attacks they expect to see. If you bring a balanced offense with a bit of everything, aren't you just going to walk right into the little bit of everything they have on defense and not accomplish anything?

No one runs a 'balanced offense' that tries to attack everything. They all attack particular aspects of a defense to try and overwhelm that, because there's no way you can ever fit enough defenses against all of the attacks to stop them all cold while still having an offense of your own. Some try and overwhelm a defense with raw damage, others try and ignore monks and race reaction times with spikes. Others try and bombard defenses with mes effects so they can't respond to the damage coming in and just drop dead, or spike quickly to blow out their anti-spike measures on energy.

This becomes much more relevant in the playoffs when you know who your opponent is. Being able to show a variety of offenses to keep your opponent's defense honest is very important.

In any case it's not about being able to strictly counter a build. It's about being able to put up a fight against the raw variety of builds that you will expect to face on a given night. It is difficult to even fight spike during ladder play because of this, it is a hard strategy to fight straight up and you cannot fit nearly as many tools as you would like to have against it if you want to have game against the various pressure and shutdown builds you will also certainly face. To that end, necro spike was a build that you could not fight during ladder play. It had too much of a resource advantage, and you simply could not possibly fit enough tools to even start to address it while still having game against everything else available.

Yes, you could run around on it and try and steal a victory with movement. Given the map constraints that the necrospike could impose, and the fact that the necrospike was a build that *every* team had to run around on - because nothing can fight it straight up - is that really good for the game?


Quote:
Originally Posted by yuna of spira
So realistically how powerful was that build in the first place that ANET feels they cant let it survive one week and have to add it into their updates within a few days?
The concensus was that there existed no build that could fight it straight up that did not rely on the same broken mechanic. Arena.net does not believe in making balance changes in the middle of a ladder season, so they either needed to act quickly, or let the build chew up the entire season.


Quote:
Originally Posted by yuna of spira
Why not pressure the spirit spammers?
How do you plan on pressuring a team with five 20 pip monks, two ritualists spamming defensive spirits, constant Aegis, multiple Heal Parties, Expel Hexes, and a zephyr sitting on your face?


Quote:
Originally Posted by yuna of spira
or get them to drop their spirits in one location then run to another, just out of range of the spirits?
Quickening Zephyr + Soul Twisting. Thanks for giving up all that ground, please try and run a flag through our spike.


Quote:
Originally Posted by yuna of spira
ANET failed to give this a chance and instead allowed people to not have to think about this new special build, but rather continue to play the game of what skills and professions to play rather than what tactics to employ.
I don't understand this at all. The tactics dominate the top of the game in GvG. Skills are chosen to execute the tactics that are needed to win, not the other way around. Insinuation that removing this build makes the game more about builds than tactics is ludicrous.

What gets me is how this argument has shifted. The basis of your argument is 'my necromancer with a ritualist backing him up got nerfed, and I'm not happy about it'. While that's not an argument that I feel holds any particular sway, I can understand and accept where it is coming from, and respect it on some level. However, since that argument isn't persuasive, now it's being argued that the 20 pip necrospike was not a problem. Not only is that argument ridiculous, both theoretically and from experience, but I really have to question the motive for it. Do you *really* think that 20 pip necrospike is good for the game, and that people can just play around it? Or do you just want to keep playing your necro with a ritualist powering him, oblivious to the larger consequences that has on the rest of the game?

I would take this discussion much, much more seriously if I was not convinced that the latter case was true.

Peace,
-CxE
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Old Jun 03, 2006, 11:26 PM // 23:26   #79
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One thing people use necros for is MM, they may have nerfed limit but the golem still kills u
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Old Jun 04, 2006, 12:08 AM // 00:08   #80
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Originally Posted by Stabber
Now as to the substance of your complaint regarding the spirit nerf, I agree with you. There is once again next to no reason to play necros in GvG.
Aside from the fact that Necro's are decent, have a good skill set, and are great utility characters to boot?

Really, cry less about nerfing; Necro's are still perfectly viable.
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